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Region: Fodlan

The Noble State of Aegir wrote:
I don't think a lot of people recognize that Edelgard really doesn't have a choice in starting the war. What are her choices? She could start the war, rally her people around her, and hopefully, defeat the powerful Church and uproot the nobility and Crest system (which as I've previously established is unjust, deeply engrained, and not going to easily be reformed) with the help of the powerful Agarthans. Or, she could make herself enemies of the Agarthans by not going to war on the church. The absolute best case scenario I see in that instance is that she gains to the loyalty of the Church and other countries, and they work together to "defeat" the Agarthans and the corruption that they are behind, while the Church Crest System and nobility continue on with no incentive to reform. Edelgard is reliant on the Nobility and Church to rule, and little changes for better or worse. Most likely, the Agarthans, frustrated with their weapon's insubordination, deposes her somehow, and try to seize control against the Church by sowing dissent conflict, as Adrestia would likely be thrown into chaos following Edelgard's removal from power. In this, there is no incentive to improve, Dimitri never ascends the throne, and Claude ____ ______ __ _ ____ ____ ___ ____ ____ __ ______. (redacted for Aquila's sake, knowing you're going to read this) Nothing improves, just violence and destruction while people rally around the Church and the institutions of Fodlan. That's what they want, to cause chaos and violence, and there's no way around it. The idea that there is some happy middle ground where the three house leaders and Rhea just kinda... get along, get rid of crests, and work together to defeat the slithery boys such as what you see in the Side Story is ridiculously unrealistic, if you think about the political forces that are pulling them apart. It's like the French Revolution, or, in a certain way, the Protestant Reformation. Regardless of the details of how things transpired, the fact was that the institutions that dominated Europe, Absolute Monarchy + nobility and the Catholic Church, had major issues, and would never have any sort of incentive to change at all had those events hadn't taken place, regardless of how bloody and destructive had ended up being. Without Edelgard or someone like her calling out the system for the issues that it had, nothing would have ever gotten better, and the other routes wouldn't have had any excuse to unite Fodlan under one central authority. Edelgard's solution is far from perfect, and I am willing to entertain arguments that the means and outcomes of other routes would be better for Fodlan (although I am doubtful) However, it is completely unfair to criticize Edelgard for the course of action she takes with a few glaring exceptions. Hiring Kostas to attack her Dimitri and Claude, only to almost die herself in the battle is probably the most nonsensically stupid thing anyone does in this game and seriously bothers me). It's sad, but she really doesn't have any choice in the matter, she has to make use of the powerful, yet tragic circumstances she finds herself in to do the best thing she can.

I'm inclined to agree, but I need to see the other routes first before concluding that.

Like I said, for her bloody path to be justifiable, it needs to be necessary.

She's blamed for starting the war by Rhea and Dimitri, but if she had no choice, and was the only one with the gall to do it, then she's more heroic than villainous.

War, in my brain, can be justified. I'm not a pacifist, starting a war against an injust enemy is a good thing, not a bad thing, even if you break the peace.

There is this theorem, by the philosopher St. Thomas Aquinas. I'd read it if you're interested in the ethics of war.

He posits, war can be justified, but certain qualifiers need to be met. This is a reductionist explanation, but basically, Edelgard needs:

1. A just cause.

2. A just means.

3. A just end.

All that really means is she needs to be waging war for the right reason, has to conduct it properly (Limit civilian deaths at all chances, don't commit war crimes.), and it means her world she seeks to create is a better outcome, which, importantly, she's actually capable of achieving.

I think, based on how well she does in SS even without Byleth, she is actually capable. The problem is Byleth sides against her in that scenario. She also has a just cause, though you could question her more if the Church is really of grave importance. The weakest plank for El is the means I think. She does avoid civilian deaths, but she does work with TWSITD. As their ally, she isn't directly responsible for their war crimes, but she tolerates them. Now, she does plan to deal with them, so I think you could still justify her war, but that is still a problem I think.

As for Kostas...

I was confused about that at first, because it seemed to be the game was saying she caused it, but it made no sense.

I have two theories:

1. She told Kostas to only attack them, to take out her opponents. She intended to make sure the Alliance and Kingdom lords loyal to her would quickly side with her, and swiftly end the war. She was trying to stop greater bloodshed, but it failed, because Kostas is that much of an idiot. The Flame Emperor certainly was pissed at him. I think Kostas charged blindly at her. Maybe he only knew the Flame Emperor, not Edelgard. Now, maybe that is stupid. But it's possible he was told not to attack the Princess, and Kostas, being some random bandit, didn't know. Possibly, he just thought Edelgard was another noble brat, and didn't care. He thought his employer would not find out. It seems to me that the Flame Emperor is the one who hired him.

2. Crazier theory. People go on in the game about how Hubert and Edelgard seem to always be one step ahead of everyone, and in SS, the Church seems far less capable than the Empire, and so do the Kingdom and Alliance. We also know Hubert has spies.

Wild idea:

Hubert knew about Byleth.

Not everything, obviously. But Jeralt was reasonably famous, and they may have wanted to employ Jeralt at the least. As he researches, he finds out about this 'Ashen Demon" son of his, who appears to be as strong as Jeralt.

Edelgard quickly after the battle offers him a position in her army before Dimitri or Claude gets a chance. They all ask, but she asks first. Maybe that is owing just to Edelgard's nature as a commanding person who takes initiative.

However.

I also ponder if it is possible that either A. somehow, they knew in advance Jeralt and Byleth were nearby and planned this all out to be a staged attack and test Byleth.

B. They didn't know they were here, and only planned to kill Claude and Dimitri. But later, when Hubert finds out, they change tactics a bit.

Either way, they want Kostas to attack her, because they want to test Byleth.

Now, Edelgard is surprised when he does. She's unprepared. So maybe he went too far, and she wasn't ready to block it if she needed to.

So then Byleth actually saves her.

Either that or it was truly staged, and El is just a fantastic actress.

I am thinking, according to this idea, Edelgard wanted to, from the start, get Byleth close to her. She wanted him to save her, as if they have some connection.

I'd like the idea she was impressed, and quickly admired him for it, but perhaps, just perhaps, she wanted Kostas to do that.

Honestly, even if that is a ridiculous idea, I don't think it was stupid. You could say it was stupid to trust Kostas. But Edelgard is willing to try anything to avoid all of the bloodshed. She mentions, much later, during the war, how she mourns the bloodshed or something, but few others see it how she does. I think she felt from the start if there is a war, it will be bloody, and she hates that. So she'd risk her own life to make sure it isn't.

It fails, but she tried to wrap things up quickly.

Also, yes, I am hating SS so much right now, mostly because of Edelgard and Hubert's conversations later in battle and at the reunion with Byleth, but also, because of this:

So far, all that is changed is Edelgard has to get past her feelings for Byleth.

The Church is still totally unforgiving and in the battle of Garreg Mach, who seriously screwed the place up more? Rhea smashed some buildings. I get the Imperial army invaded, but the only people launching fire attacks here seem to be the Church. I'm taking a wild guess El does something crazy later on, but right off the bat, their side bothers me less both in their perspective and in their means of waging war. I suppose everyone, not just Rhea, is stubborn in this game. El, Dimitri, and Rhea are pretty equally stubborn. Claude, I'm not sure about yet.

But really, other than telling me we're family, and I'm related to Sothis, I don't know what reason I'd join the Church. So I'm in charge. That's cool, but unless Byleth has some way to deal with all of Fodlan's issues from within an entrenched system, I have to doubt if that really matters for the continent.

I think Byleth and El, together, could accomplish more, but whatever.

I don't like comparisons to El with Martin Luther. Primarily being that the actual issues within the Catholic Church at that time were reformed, by peaceful means, without a total 'war' on the Church, via Church reformers.

People like Flayn, Byleth, and Seteth within the Church fixed it, not Martin Luther.

It makes El seem like some angry monk with a vendetta who doesn't know half of what she's talking about.

But I think she does know, and the system she is fighting is more difficult to reform peacefully. The crests complicate everything. As long they exist, Fodlan will stay the same.

The Catholic Church took too long to fix itself, because of stubborn, corrupt people. When those stubborn people died, it fixed itself. Luther was not alone, people faithful to the Church, like Erasmus, realized just as much as him the need for reforms. The difference was that Luther was an idiot who didn't understand basic fundamentals of the Christian faith he rejected, and history. He accused the Church of alot that just wasn't true in regards to its origins and intentions.

I think it would be odd to call her a Saint Francis of Assisi type, since he was faithful to the Church, and made his reforms peacefully without direct engagement.

Honestly, considering the landed power of the Church of Seiros, and how the Church acts more like a political power than a religious one, I am inclined to think she's more like a revolutionary in France. I think she is better than Robespierre, but she certainly wants to destroy the status quo system. That system did involve corrupt Bishops, but her attack is on the whole status quo system, not just the Church. She attacks the political system as well.

Also, Luther just went and founded his own religion. She has more in common with the French secularists in mind.

Also, I hold her in higher regard than Luther, and I like to think of her, in real life, as a French revolutionary liberal/humanist than as Martin Luther.

I also just don't like Martin Luther, and she is about as angry at the Church as Luther was... but I think since her movement is secular, the revolutionary comparison is more apt.

...just like the French revolution, the end result was an Emperor. She's Napoleon.

I don't disagree with you about her needing to make this choice, I'm just attempting to stay unsure until I see how the other routes end up.

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