by Max Barry

Latest Forum Topics

Advertisement

Search

Search

[+] Advanced...

Author:

Region:

Sort:

«12. . .172173174175176177178. . .313314»

Dendrobium wrote:All looks fine to me. Small Amendment though, because of the pejorative and degrading connotation and often still use of the (neo)colonial word "natives", I propose it to be changed. This is not a breaking point on my vote, but I do believe it may eventually make the bill have a better quality and a higher sense of professionalism.

Changes Article II - Creates Article V - Anti-Griefing Policy to say:

Section II - Operations which grief occupied regions shall be defined as operations where acts are conducted harming the natives inhabitants of a region in a way which is permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the intentional ejection or banjection of natives inhabitants of occupied regions.

Section III - An native inhabitant is defined as a resident of an occupied region who is not residing in the region for raiding/defending purposes.

I appreciate the mentality, but native is a term used by NationStates itself, that of which we cannot change. It is also heavily used in gameplay and R/D, so even if it weren't a gameside issue, it would cause an extreme amount of issues.

Inhabitants could be argued to apply to any and all residents of the region, which works paralyse any occupations, as defender nations that try to seize the delegacy back are ejected every update. The term natives shows the difference between defenders and your everyday nation of the region.

TL DR- Opposed for being a gameside issue. Will also create confusion and potential loophole opening. Additionally, would paralyse occupations, and probably liberations if you can argue that.

Indian genius, Toerana V, and Dendrobium

Brototh wrote:- - snip - -

Fair points. In that case I repeal Amendment A.

Indian genius, Brototh, and Toerana V

I have added an additional article. These are cosmetic changes. We have adopted an ancient Greek theme and it would be well appreciated if we could put it into law. Right now it is kind of a small grey area if having a different name is entirely legal, so to help out our RP and fun parameters, we would well appreciate it if it could be changed.

Author: Andusre, Brototh
Sponsor: XXX
Preamble: Noting the dire threat which some sections of LR 40 pose to operation security (opsec), which could severely impact the success of an operation and the foreign affairs reputation of Thaecia should a leak occur,
Understanding the need to add further sections to legally protect other regions from destruction at the hands of Thaecia,
Believing the military could benefit much more from a situation similar to the Thaecian Roleplay,
Respecting that Congress is a higher priority for Thaecia than her relatively new military,

Congress hereby agrees,

Amends Section I and Section II
  • Section I - The Thaempirial Army which shall be under the competence of the Prime Minister, and which the President shall be the Chief in Command, with the Secretary of Defence as its operational Most Senior Officer, shall have the responsibility to defend the regions, uphold international military engagements, provide military assistance to allies, protect and forward collective Thaecian interests abroad and domestically, and occupy regions.

  • Section II – There shall be an established 'Secretary of Defence' nominated by and under the Prime Minister President, akin to how the Prime Minister employs their Ministers,

Amends Section III and Section IIIa, Creates Section IIIb

  • Section III – The Executive shall at any time, when making use of the Thaempirial Army, for defensive or offensive purpose, continue to inform and interact with the legislative Senate, as equal partners, and conduct rigorous self-oversight.

    • Section IIIa - Specifically, whenever the Executive makes use of the Thaempirial Army, they shall interact and inform with the House of Commons, the Senate, or the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Chairperson of the Senate or the Senate directly, who then shall pass on this information to their respectable Chambers Senate (if applicable), and the Foreign Affairs Minister, and the Speaker of the House, as equal partners.

    • Section IIIb - After the conclusion of an operation, the Executive shall inform the House of Commons directly, of the details of the previous military operation. The Executive shall also prepare a full, detailed, and honest report of the military operation, which shall be released to the public. Said report may also be the one given to the House of Commons.

Creates Section IVa

    • Section IVa- The Thaempirial Army shall be prohibited from carrying out any military operation during a Senate election. Military operations may take place in a Senate special election provided that special election does not have more than half of the total capacity of the chamber up for election.

Creates Section V

  • Section V - The Prime Minister shall have the authority to veto participation in a military operation for any reason, but that reason must be given to the Secretary of Defence. The Foreign Affairs Minister shall be able to veto participation in an operation only if said participation would incur significant harm to the region's Foreign Affairs. The Prime Minister shall have the authority to overturn this veto.

  • Section I - No member of the Thaempirial Army shall knowingly partake in operations which grief occupied regions when on an operation with the Thaempirial Army. Doing so will be considered a criminal offence, prosecutable in the High Court of Thaecia.

  • Section II - Operations which grief occupied regions shall be defined as operations where acts are conducted harming the inhabitants of a region in a way which is permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding of an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the ejection or banjection of inhabitants of occupied regions- if the nation in question is immediately unbanned, this shall be forgiven.

  • Section III - An inhabitant is defined as a resident of an occupied region who is not residing in the region for raiding/defending purposes.

  • Section IV - Section II shall not apply to regions which are fascist in nature.

  • Section V - Members of the Thaempirial Army shall have a duty of candour to report griefing by any Thaecian or by a member of another organisation with which the Thaempirial Army is collaborating to the Secretary of Defence. Should a member of the Thaempirial Army become aware of griefing in these circumstances but fails to report it, this shall be grounds for their expulsion from the Thaempirial Army.

  • Section VI - Where the Thaempirial Army has taken part in an operation which griefs a region, the whole organisation will be required to withdraw from the operation in the timeliest possible manner. Should the Secretary of Defence be made aware of griefing by a Thaecian or collaborating foreign military member, but fails to have the whole organisation withdraw from the operation by not ordering an immediate withdrawal order, this will be considered grounds for recall of the Secretary of Defence. A Thaempirial Army member who defies the order to withdraw from the operation in question shall be expelled from the Thaempirial Army and shall never be readmitted.

  • Section VIa - The Secretary of Defence, before military operations, must inform participants or foreign allies if applicable, that the Thaempirial Army has a zero tolerance on griefing. If a participant/ally declares their intention to grief, or it is disclosed that the operation is of a grieifing nature, the Thaempirial Army shall not take part in that operation unless said participant/ally agrees not to grief, or said participant/ally is removed from the operation/not given permission to partake in the operation. The Thaempirial Army shall never knowingly and willfully take part in an operation that is of a griefing nature.

Amends Section II,
Section II - The following ranks will exist in the Thaempirial Army. The higher a rank is on this list, the more prestigious it is. The top two ranks may not be achieved by an ordinary officer or military personnel through promotion. The Secretary of Defence may choose whom has the power to promote/demote others, but will always have the final say in whom is promoted or demoted -- second only to the President. The Thaempirial Army may be allowed to create their own cosmetic names to stand in for these roles if they wish, but they must equate exactly to the roles listed here.

Chief in Command

Secretary of Defence

General

Colonel

Major

Lieutenant

Sergeant

Corporal

Private First Class

Private Second Class

Read dispatch

Indian genius and Toerana V

Brototh wrote:I appreciate the mentality, but native is a term used by NationStates itself, that of which we cannot change. It is also heavily used in gameplay and R/D, so even if it weren't a gameside issue, it would cause an extreme amount of issues.

Inhabitants could be argued to apply to any and all residents of the region, which works paralyse any occupations, as defender nations that try to seize the delegacy back are ejected every update. The term natives shows the difference between defenders and your everyday nation of the region.

TL DR- Opposed for being a gameside issue. Will also create confusion and potential loophole opening. Additionally, would paralyse occupations, and probably liberations if you can argue that.

The loopholes wouldn't exist because "inhabitant" would be defined in the act the exact same way as "Native" was. The person bringing the case to the court would have to successfully argue that a term that is not defined anywhere else in the law actually means something else in the context of the legislation, despite its meaning being clearly defined. I'd honestly like to see them try.

The term native doesn't have a set definition in gameplay, and many GPers argue about what really counts as a native all the time. Assigning a different term, like inhabitant, removes all the baggage associated with the relatively controversial term, while serving the exact same purpose.

Brototh wrote:I have added an additional article. These are cosmetic changes. We have adopted an ancient Greek theme and it would be well appreciated if we could put it into law. Right now it is kind of a small grey area if having a different name is entirely legal, so to help out our RP and fun parameters, we would well appreciate it if it could be changed.

Author: Andusre, Brototh
Sponsor: XXX
Preamble: Noting the dire threat which some sections of LR 40 pose to operation security (opsec), which could severely impact the success of an operation and the foreign affairs reputation of Thaecia should a leak occur,
Understanding the need to add further sections to legally protect other regions from destruction at the hands of Thaecia,
Believing the military could benefit much more from a situation similar to the Thaecian Roleplay,
Respecting that Congress is a higher priority for Thaecia than her relatively new military,

Congress hereby agrees,

Amends Section I and Section II
  • Section I - The Thaempirial Army which shall be under the competence of the Prime Minister, and which the President shall be the Chief in Command, with the Secretary of Defence as its operational Most Senior Officer, shall have the responsibility to defend the regions, uphold international military engagements, provide military assistance to allies, protect and forward collective Thaecian interests abroad and domestically, and occupy regions.

  • Section II – There shall be an established 'Secretary of Defence' nominated by and under the Prime Minister President, akin to how the Prime Minister employs their Ministers,

Amends Section III and Section IIIa, Creates Section IIIb

  • Section III – The Executive shall at any time, when making use of the Thaempirial Army, for defensive or offensive purpose, continue to inform and interact with the legislative Senate, as equal partners, and conduct rigorous self-oversight.

    • Section IIIa - Specifically, whenever the Executive makes use of the Thaempirial Army, they shall interact and inform with the House of Commons, the Senate, or the Speaker of the House of Commons and the Chairperson of the Senate or the Senate directly, who then shall pass on this information to their respectable Chambers Senate (if applicable), and the Foreign Affairs Minister, and the Speaker of the House, as equal partners.

    • Section IIIb - After the conclusion of an operation, the Executive shall inform the House of Commons directly, of the details of the previous military operation. The Executive shall also prepare a full, detailed, and honest report of the military operation, which shall be released to the public. Said report may also be the one given to the House of Commons.

Creates Section IVa

    • Section IVa- The Thaempirial Army shall be prohibited from carrying out any military operation during a Senate election. Military operations may take place in a Senate special election provided that special election does not have more than half of the total capacity of the chamber up for election.

Creates Section V

  • Section V - The Prime Minister shall have the authority to veto participation in a military operation for any reason, but that reason must be given to the Secretary of Defence. The Foreign Affairs Minister shall be able to veto participation in an operation only if said participation would incur significant harm to the region's Foreign Affairs. The Prime Minister shall have the authority to overturn this veto.

  • Section I - No member of the Thaempirial Army shall knowingly partake in operations which grief occupied regions when on an operation with the Thaempirial Army. Doing so will be considered a criminal offence, prosecutable in the High Court of Thaecia.

  • Section II - Operations which grief occupied regions shall be defined as operations where acts are conducted harming the inhabitants of a region in a way which is permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding of an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the ejection or banjection of inhabitants of occupied regions- if the nation in question is immediately unbanned, this shall be forgiven.

  • Section III - An inhabitant is defined as a resident of an occupied region who is not residing in the region for raiding/defending purposes.

  • Section IV - Section II shall not apply to regions which are fascist in nature.

  • Section V - Members of the Thaempirial Army shall have a duty of candour to report griefing by any Thaecian or by a member of another organisation with which the Thaempirial Army is collaborating to the Secretary of Defence. Should a member of the Thaempirial Army become aware of griefing in these circumstances but fails to report it, this shall be grounds for their expulsion from the Thaempirial Army.

  • Section VI - Where the Thaempirial Army has taken part in an operation which griefs a region, the whole organisation will be required to withdraw from the operation in the timeliest possible manner. Should the Secretary of Defence be made aware of griefing by a Thaecian or collaborating foreign military member, but fails to have the whole organisation withdraw from the operation by not ordering an immediate withdrawal order, this will be considered grounds for recall of the Secretary of Defence. A Thaempirial Army member who defies the order to withdraw from the operation in question shall be expelled from the Thaempirial Army and shall never be readmitted.

  • Section VIa - The Secretary of Defence, before military operations, must inform participants or foreign allies if applicable, that the Thaempirial Army has a zero tolerance on griefing. If a participant/ally declares their intention to grief, or it is disclosed that the operation is of a grieifing nature, the Thaempirial Army shall not take part in that operation unless said participant/ally agrees not to grief, or said participant/ally is removed from the operation/not given permission to partake in the operation. The Thaempirial Army shall never knowingly and willfully take part in an operation that is of a griefing nature.

Amends Section II,
Section II - The following ranks will exist in the Thaempirial Army. The higher a rank is on this list, the more prestigious it is. The top two ranks may not be achieved by an ordinary officer or military personnel through promotion. The Secretary of Defence may choose whom has the power to promote/demote others, but will always have the final say in whom is promoted or demoted -- second only to the President. The Thaempirial Army may be allowed to create their own cosmetic names to stand in for these roles if they wish, but they must equate exactly to the roles listed here.

Chief in Command

Secretary of Defence

General

Colonel

Major

Lieutenant

Sergeant

Corporal

Private First Class

Private Second Class

Read dispatch

Opposed, it's cosmetic. No need to define in the law cosmetic changes. If the positions don't mean anything in terms of command structure, then there is no reason to define them.

Onto my issues with these amendments in general:
Section III:
A & B - Why inform the Speaker of the House if they aren't allowed to inform the house of the op until it is over? Furthermore, the law requires the speaker is informed at the start, and then again at the end to *then* tell the entire house. Either inform the Speaker *and* house at the end, or at the beginning. Don't mix and match as it just makes for a messy situation for the Speaker, who knows OPSEC information for no particular reason. If this amendment is meant to make it easier to conduct OPSEC operations, then telling someone who has no use for the information is kinda pointless.

Support for Section V

Article II
First of all, props for including an Anti Griefing policy.
Section I - I understand the reasoning for wanting the ability to prosecute military members for actions taken in other militaries, but it infringes on citizens rights. I dislike the idea, even as a moralistic defender, that someone can be handed a severe punishment by the court for actions taken outside of Thaecia. This should be dealt with internally, not by the courts.

Section II - Personally, I want more examples of grieifing to ensure that if an Operation breaks this section, those in charge can be prosecuted and not hide behind the lack of proper definition.
Personally: Removal "intentional ejection or banjection" and replace with "ejection or banjection." In a text based browser game, intent is very hard to gauge, and it should be made completely illegal. With the definition of native, it's very clear that the ejection of nations in the region prior to the occupation is illegal, reducing the likelihood of confusion over sleepers. I'd rather a sleeper was left alone out of caution than a native ejected because there wasn't any.

Section III - As said before, I support the switch to "inhabitant".

Section IV - I am iffy on the "similarly undesirable individuals." Does this mean fascist? Does this mean blacklisted? Does this mean individuals banned in Thaecia alone? It's unclear. I'd rather the individual clause was scrapped, in favour of just fascist regions otherwise every right leaning region could be at risk of being invaded.

Section V - Support

Section VI - Include legal responsibility for the Sec. Def. If they don't withdraw (military wide). If we are going to make participating in a griefing operation for another military grounds for prosecution, then not withdrawing once participation in a griefing op military wide should be held on the same level, if not a more severe one.

Article IV Amendments:

I dislike the idea of legislating anything cosmetic into an act. If the role has no meaningful impact, it shouldn't be legislated and should be left to Thaempirial command to mess with.

I can write up proper amendments for these changes I want to later, if someone else doesn't want to do them for me~

Indian genius

Toerana V wrote:
The loopholes wouldn't exist because "inhabitant" would be defined in the act the exact same way as "Native" was. The person bringing the case to the court would have to successfully argue that a term that is not defined anywhere else in the law actually means something else in the context of the legislation, despite its meaning being clearly defined. I'd honestly like to see them try.

The term native doesn't have a set definition in gameplay, and many GPers argue about what really counts as a native all the time. Assigning a different term, like inhabitant, removes all the baggage associated with the relatively controversial term, while serving the exact same purpose.

Opposed, it's cosmetic. No need to define in the law cosmetic changes. If the positions don't mean anything in terms of command structure, then there is no reason to define them.

Onto my issues with these amendments in general:
Section III:
A & B - Why inform the Speaker of the House if they aren't allowed to inform the house of the op until it is over? Furthermore, the law requires the speaker is informed at the start, and then again at the end to *then* tell the entire house. Either inform the Speaker *and* house at the end, or at the beginning. Don't mix and match as it just makes for a messy situation for the Speaker, who knows OPSEC information for no particular reason. If this amendment is meant to make it easier to conduct OPSEC operations, then telling someone who has no use for the information is kinda pointless.

Support for Section V

Article II
First of all, props for including an Anti Griefing policy.
Section I - I understand the reasoning for wanting the ability to prosecute military members for actions taken in other militaries, but it infringes on citizens rights. I dislike the idea, even as a moralistic defender, that someone can be handed a severe punishment by the court for actions taken outside of Thaecia. This should be dealt with internally, not by the courts.

Section II - Personally, I want more examples of grieifing to ensure that if an Operation breaks this section, those in charge can be prosecuted and not hide behind the lack of proper definition.
Personally: Removal "intentional ejection or banjection" and replace with "ejection or banjection." In a text based browser game, intent is very hard to gauge, and it should be made completely illegal. With the definition of native, it's very clear that the ejection of nations in the region prior to the occupation is illegal, reducing the likelihood of confusion over sleepers. I'd rather a sleeper was left alone out of caution than a native ejected because there wasn't any.

Section III - As said before, I support the switch to "inhabitant".

Section IV - I am iffy on the "similarly undesirable individuals." Does this mean fascist? Does this mean blacklisted? Does this mean individuals banned in Thaecia alone? It's unclear. I'd rather the individual clause was scrapped, in favour of just fascist regions otherwise every right leaning region could be at risk of being invaded.

Section V - Support

Section VI - Include legal responsibility for the Sec. Def. If they don't withdraw (military wide). If we are going to make participating in a griefing operation for another military grounds for prosecution, then not withdrawing once participation in a griefing op military wide should be held on the same level, if not a more severe one.

Article IV Amendments:

I dislike the idea of legislating anything cosmetic into an act. If the role has no meaningful impact, it shouldn't be legislated and should be left to Thaempirial command to mess with.

I can write up proper amendments for these changes I want to later, if someone else doesn't want to do them for me~

The term native is better because it is much more commonly used. The term inhabitant is, as far as I can see, not used at all, if it is used, it isn't commonly used. The common usage of native allows us to build a definition on a commonly used basis, rather than creating a new word in and of itself. It is likely that, when talking to other regions, we would probably say native anyway, as colloquialism, or at least for better understanding and communication between each other. I will argue that assigning a new term inhabitant does not make the bill better, in fact, it makes it worse, due to the lack of use of this term.
I could be persuaded to agree to the term inhabitant, should it also be coupled with a long and full definition. However, only changing it, without providing a definition beforehand, undoubtedly makes the military even harder to understand than it were before.

I will talk about cosmetic issues later on.

I personally would prefer if the Speaker of the House was not informed at all. I absolutely agree with you, it makes no sense. Unfortunately, the House of Commons does not understand the meaning of operation security. The House has no power over the military once the SoDf is confirmed, again- true. I have had many long and arduous debates with pacifists and MPs alike. For some reason, they are fixated that if a military has to exist, the House must be told. Many Senators here share the same sentient, for reasons that I personally do not understand.
I would absolutely love it if the Speaker would be taken out entirely, but unfortunately, the Senate will have a hard time passing it, let alone the House. I don't have any reasonable belief it could pass the House with it taken out, and I doubt it would be above the bottom of the docket, to be honest.

I don't know where that part in Section I came from, write an amendment B and take it out. Agreed

If you would like more examples of griefing, you can go ahead and add them. But you seem to believe, from our previous experiences, that changing the WFE is griefing. So forgive me if I am skeptical to see what you would like to add, considering we have very different R/D viewpoints. As far as I can see, all the bases are covered "changes that are permanent or arduous to undo. Examples include but are not limited to the refounding an occupied region; applying passwords to an occupied region; and the intentional ejection or banjection of natives of occupied regions." already in the bill.
I could get behind removing the intent clause, however, I think what was seen here was not knowing they were a native to the region. Perhaps it can be amended with a clause about undoing the ban of natives as soon as it is discovered, if applicable. I think that would possibly be hard to apply in a real situation, but at the same time, a small accident is not enough to end an entire operation in my opinion, especially if the issue in hand is undone.

Switch to inhabitant already addressed

The term "similarly undesirable individuals" is very vague, I agree. I think it means extremist political regions, although that alone is very hard to understand. A change to fascist could work, because I don't see us refounding any non-fash in the first place, to be honest. I would still prefer if it could be changed to have more examples of undesirable individuals. Perhaps it means people with significant OOC issues? I don't know- in all honesty, I did not write this section, and at first glance it looked good. A change to simply just fascist and perhaps extremist would suit me well, personally.

I don't understand what you mean. There is responsibility to withdraw.
"Where the Thaempirial Army has taken part in an operation which griefs a region, the organisation will be required to withdraw from the operation in the timeliest possible manner." - the Organisation as a whole must withdraw
"Should the Secretary of Defence be made aware of griefing by a Thaecian or collaborating foreign military member, but fails to withdraw from the operation, this will be considered grounds for recall of the Secretary of Defence." - they can be recalled if they choose not to withdraw- in a text-based browser game, as you said, it is very hard to prosecute apart from impeachment and ejection, so there isn't exactly more "punishments" we can give to add to legal responsibility, and this certainly does not warrant a ban
"A Thaempirial Army member who defies the order to withdraw from the operation in question shall be expelled from the Thaempirial Army and shall never be readmitted." - individuals too must withdraw or shall be expelled from the Army.
The first sentence alone shows the whole organisation must withdraw, and if only the SoDf withdraws, then it is a very easy argument in court that "My client, the organisation, could not have known the organisation was griefing or supposed to withdraw as the SoDf did not inform them. It is their responsibility to inform them, as it would be impossible for them to withdraw otherwise. Thus your honours, the Secretary of Defence has violated the law by making it impossible for the Thaempirial Army to carry out their duties. The law also states that the Secretary of Defence must withdraw from the operation, yet the Thaempirial Army did not withdraw due to their own negligence."
Not withdrawing is already more severe. Instead of just simply pulling out "sorry bros, we messed up, wont r/d with them anymore", you get recalled and/or expelled.

The issue we have here with the cosmetic issues is we believe that it may be illegal to change the names. We want to change the names for a bit of fun. As you can see, there are still the same number of ranks in the Army, so I don't see the issue. The names are already pre-defined in law, so you can argue changing them is illegal. Currently we have to use the argument "well it corresponds to this rank exactly / they have both ranks at the same time, this one is just higher / etc", to find loopholes in the law and skirt around it. This is not something we like doing, for obvious reasons, especially when all we are trying to do is have a bit of fun and try out some Greek theming.

Indian genius and Toerana V

At the request of the author the above bill has been tabled

Senators, we have begun debate on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).



Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021)

A Bill that restricts interregional espionage on allies.
------

-- Written by Brototh --
-- Sponsored by Ashlawn and Islonia --
______________________________________________________________

PREAMBLE

Noticing that Thaecia does not have a procedure on foreign interregional espionage,
Understanding that spying on Thaecia is already illegal, however spying for Thaecia is not,
Believing that this could create a situation where Thaecian officials or private citizens attempt to find loopholes, creating an interregional incident,
Believing that spying on one's allies is wrong, and create an extreme level of distrust in our relationship and of Thaecia as a whole,
Motivated to encourage other regions to create relations with us with the assurance that they shall not be spied on,

Congress hereby agrees,

  • Section I - For the purposes of this Act only, hereby defines:

    1. interregional espionage - spying on a non-Thaecian region and/or organisation, and/or transferring information deemed classified or confidential by the region and/or organisation without permission from that region and/or organisation, and/or acting on false pretence in a non-Thaecian region without the permission of that region's government- this shall be considered separate to domestic espionage, where a foreign individual commits the same offence upon Thaecia.

    2. ally - a region with whom Thaecia has signed and ratified a bilateral treaty.

    3. Government of Thaecia - any combination of the President of Thaecia, the Prime Minister, and the Cabinet

  • Section I - The Government of Thaecia shall not be allowed to authorise, condone, encourage, or likewise, interregional espionage upon an ally.

  • Section II - If the Government of Thaecia carries this out, it shall be considered an impeachable offence, and treasonous.

  • Section I - Thaecian residents shall not be allowed to undertake, or conspire to undertake, interregional espionage upon an ally, under any circumstance.

  • Section II - If a Thaecian resident carries this out, it shall be considered treasonous.

Read dispatch

Antenion (IND)
Cerdenia (IND)
Dendrobium (SOL)
Ermica (TCU)
Pap sculgief (IND)
Toerana V (IND)

Indian genius, Brototh, and Toerana V

Ashlawn wrote:At the request of the author the above bill has been tabled

Senators, we have begun debate on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).

"Ok brototh's bill is tabled. Moving onto brototh's bill"

My arguments for are listed in the preamble. I will be happy to provide extra info to Senators in private GC.

RE: Preamble
Noticing that Thaecia does not have a procedure on foreign interregional espionage,
Understanding that spying on Thaecia is already illegal, however spying for Thaecia is not,
Believing that this could create a situation where Thaecian officials or private citizens attempt to find loopholes, creating an interregional incident,
Believing that spying on one's allies is wrong, and create an extreme level of distrust in our relationship and of Thaecia as a whole,
Motivated to encourage other regions to create relations with us with the assurance that they shall not be spied on,

Indian genius and Toerana V

Saved by the bell Brototh :P

As for the bill in question....

To start, I applaud the intention, I just feel like it comes with too much baggage and unknown variables.

Speaking as someone who has an.... interesting past with "leaking" (I'm about a year into a 2 yr ban for "leaking" the Lazerene jump point) I'm hesitant to support this, especially because of the lack of severity scaling in the bill, it jumps everything up to treason, which feels excessive.
Furthermore, it brings it back round to the question of intent. Say, purely hypothetically, I leaked an upcoming article for the Rejected Times for whatever reason, but I claim I didn't join TRT to leak and commit espionage, is my sentence more severe? How do you judge if I'm being truthful? It feels messy to me, but I suppose that's what the court is for.

Onto the acts taken by the government.....
The cynic in me says that it may be necessary for the Thaecian government to commit espionage against an allied/embassy partner.... especially if we've caught wind of something unpleasant going on behind the scenes. While this is highly unlikely to happen (with Thaecia aligning itself from long standing, respected regions such as TRR & TNP), I feel like it is a route we need to keep open and not lock behind a treason charge.

When it comes to OOC concerns... while not particularly relevant to IC Gameplay, which this is intended to cover, it may result in some overlap. Leaking, per se, may be necessary to provide administration with quick, up to date and relevant information about moderation concerns that have occurred behind the closed doors of another region. This is, strictly speaking, leaking, however unlikely it is to happen. It throws up too many unknown variables that could result in a messy overlap between IC issues and OOC issues, and that'd we'd have to trust the PM and Court to not prosecute over that specific kind of "leaking".

I'm definitely just being a cynical guy, probably clutching at straws here, but those are a few of my concerns for this relatively small bill.

Overall, I'm in favour of scrapping it entirely.

Indian genius

Toerana V wrote:
To start, I applaud the intention, I just feel like it comes with too much baggage and unknown variables.

Speaking as someone who has an.... interesting past with "leaking" (I'm about a year into a 2 yr ban for "leaking" the Lazerene jump point) I'm hesitant to support this, especially because of the lack of severity scaling in the bill, it jumps everything up to treason, which feels excessive.
Furthermore, it brings it back round to the question of intent. Say, purely hypothetically, I leaked an upcoming article for the Rejected Times for whatever reason, but I claim I didn't join TRT to leak and commit espionage, is my sentence more severe? How do you judge if I'm being truthful? It feels messy to me, but I suppose that's what the court is for.

Onto the acts taken by the government.....
The cynic in me says that it may be necessary for the Thaecian government to commit espionage against an allied/embassy partner.... especially if we've caught wind of something unpleasant going on behind the scenes. While this is highly unlikely to happen (with Thaecia aligning itself from long standing, respected regions such as TRR & TNP), I feel like it is a route we need to keep open and not lock behind a treason charge.

When it comes to OOC concerns... while not particularly relevant to IC Gameplay, which this is intended to cover, it may result in some overlap. Leaking, per se, may be necessary to provide administration with quick, up to date and relevant information about moderation concerns that have occurred behind the closed doors of another region. This is, strictly speaking, leaking, however unlikely it is to happen. It throws up too many unknown variables that could result in a messy overlap between IC issues and OOC issues, and that'd we'd have to trust the PM and Court to not prosecute over that specific kind of "leaking".

I'm definitely just being a cynical guy, probably clutching at straws here, but those are a few of my concerns for this relatively small bill.

Overall, I'm in favour of scrapping it entirely.

I don't think that leaking an issue of TRT is a good example. There's a difference between committing an offence and being banned for it. I very much so doubt that the High Court would ban you for a TRT article leak. As you said, that's what the courts are for. It could be a good idea to try and define severity in the bill- I think this could be potentially pretty hard, though. You're the one with the issues with it though, I assume you're also the one with the ideas on what you'd prefer to see better.

This is a fair point- but at the same time, I don't have my doors open to spying on another region because "oh something bad is going on maybe". I much prefer the route of talking to them or some people around them, if not that region directly, diplomatically. If we jump straight to "Welp, guess we have to spy on them" without trying to talk first, then the fact we signed a treaty with them, ratified it, and probably got embassies at the same time, is nothing short of spectacular. I can't see once in my time that we will need to spy on another region because we think something bad might be going on. If we hear about something bad, it'll always be our first action to take a look without spying- because that's entirely possible, join their Discord, see if it's popping off- and to talk to them. If it comes to the point where we think "we have to SPY on them to find out what's going on", then by that point, we shouldn't have relations with them.

Up to date moderation concerns are nothing to do with this bill. If an OOC offence has been committed, OOC is always above IC, this bill, our Court, our Constitution, is not relevant. Regardless, if another team has moderation issues and they are providing us with quick up to date information, this isn't spying. They're consensually giving us the information. If we spying on them to find out what's going on because they won't tell us about their OOC issues, that's again an OOC issue with that region and with us as a whole- thus this bill is not relevant.

I'll change this section: "and/or transferring information deemed classified or confidential by the region and/or organisation without permission from that region and/or organisation". Hopefully, that should clear any OOC moderation issues you might have, because then it would certainly prove they can transfer "classified or confidential" info and vice versa. I of course don't expect OOC moderation teams to hand out OOC moderation stuff to non moderators, hence where the classified/confidential bit comes in alongside the permission part.

This is a good step for our region as a whole on an FA standpoint and should not be tossed aside.

Indian genius and Toerana V

Brototh wrote:snip

The changing of the section definitely removes my concerns about OOC moderation. I can just envision someone in the future using this act as a "gotcha" moment for someone who shares moderation concerns with moderation.

But you make some fair points, the severity would be a pain in the ass to define, 'suppose I've got to trust the court on this one.

Indian genius and Brototh

Toerana V wrote:The changing of the section definitely removes my concerns about OOC moderation. I can just envision someone in the future using this act as a "gotcha" moment for someone who shares moderation concerns with moderation.

But you make some fair points, the severity would be a pain in the ass to define, 'suppose I've got to trust the court on this one.

BOWSHOT and CINEMA agree on something?
This is a historic day
Dendro write the time and date

Indian genius and Toerana V

Bill is good so long as it does not restrict upon a citizen's right to do their own espionage thing with non-allied regions. Since this appears to be the case, it has my support.

Indian genius, Brototh, and Toerana V

It seems good to me. No complaints.

Senators, we have begun voting on the Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021).



Interregional Foreign Espionage Bill (2021)

A Bill that restricts interregional espionage on allies.
------

-- Written by Brototh --
-- Sponsored by Ashlawn and Islonia --
______________________________________________________________

PREAMBLE

Noticing that Thaecia does not have a procedure on foreign interregional espionage,
Understanding that spying on Thaecia is already illegal, however spying for Thaecia is not,
Believing that this could create a situation where Thaecian officials or private citizens attempt to find loopholes, creating an interregional incident,
Believing that spying on one's allies is wrong, and create an extreme level of distrust in our relationship and of Thaecia as a whole,
Motivated to encourage other regions to create relations with us with the assurance that they shall not be spied on,

Congress hereby agrees,

  • Section I - For the purposes of this Act only, hereby defines:

    1. interregional espionage - spying on a non-Thaecian region and/or organisation, and/or transferring information deemed classified or confidential by the region and/or organisation without permission from that region and/or organisation, and/or acting on false pretence in a non-Thaecian region without the permission of that region's government- this shall be considered separate to domestic espionage, where a foreign individual commits the same offence upon Thaecia.

    2. ally - a region with whom Thaecia has signed and ratified a bilateral treaty.

    3. Government of Thaecia - any combination of the President of Thaecia, the Prime Minister, and the Cabinet

  • Section I - The Government of Thaecia shall not be allowed to authorise, condone, encourage, or likewise, interregional espionage upon an ally.

  • Section II - If the Government of Thaecia carries this out, it shall be considered an impeachable offence, and treasonous.

  • Section I - Thaecian residents shall not be allowed to undertake, or conspire to undertake, interregional espionage upon an ally, under any circumstance.

  • Section II - If a Thaecian resident carries this out, it shall be considered treasonous.

Read dispatch

Aye

Antenion (IND)
Cerdenia (IND)
Dendrobium (SOL)
Ermica (TCU)
Pap sculgief (IND)
Toerana V (IND)

Aye

Aye

Aye

Aye

aye

Aye

Results:
Aye (7) Ashlawn Antenion Cerdenia Dendrobium Ermica Pap sculgief Toerana V
Nay (0)
Abstain (0)

The bill has passed and will be sent to the House.

Senators, we have begun debate on the Assembly of Roleplay Act (2021).

Assembly of Roleplay Act (2022)

-- Written by Brototh --
-- Sponsored by Toerana V --

PREAMBLE
Noticing the growing interest in Roleplay Legislation [RP Legislation, RPL],
Realising the passage of the Law Registry Act was designed to encourage more RP Legislation,
Concerned that despite the passing of LR 039, only one piece of RP Legislation has ever passed, due to IC Legislation being prioritised,
Believing that with a roleplay body, Congress can both prioritise their IC Legislation, while also being able to debate and vote on RP Legislation when the time arises,
Noting that only one piece of RP Legislation has ever passed through Congress,

Congress hereby agrees,

  • Section I - Roleplay Legislation, which may also be referred to as RP Legislation or RPL, is defined as, for the purposes of this bill, as legislation that either does not directly affect the running of this region, legislation that exists for flavour, and legislation that exists for reasons solely related to IRL purposes. For example, bills that declare a climate emergency, bills that protect certain rights however do not make it an IC crime punishable by the High Court or any lower court created in the future to violate these rights (such as a LGBTQ+ marriage protection bill), etc.

  • Section II - It is the duty of the Ministry in charge of Domestic Affairs (which for the purposes of this bill shall be referred to the Ministry of Domestic Affairs, and their Minister as the Minister of Domestic Affairs, this Ministry is the same one as outlined in the Constitution, which also goes by names such as Home Affairs Ministry, Interior Ministry, etc.) to make sure that only RP Legislation that is debated by the Assembly of Roleplay.

    • Section IIa - If there is a debate in the Ministry of Domestic Affairs whether a bill is indeed RP Legislation, or an individual believes that any bill debated by this assembly is not RP Legislation, the issue shall be raised in the High Court of Thaecia. The High Court shall have the final say in this circumstance, and bills should be judged on a case by case basis.

  • Section III - Any Roleplay Legislation passed by the Assembly of Roleplay shall not, for the purposes of this bill, be considered laws as defined in the Constitution. As it does not directly affect the running of the region, it must not be considered the same as typical bills passed by Congress, and thus shall not be considered Thaecian law.

  • Section I - There shall be an established Assembly of Roleplay, comprised entirely of the citizen nations of Thaecia. The Assembly of Roleplay shall write, draft, and vote on, RPL, as defined in Article I, Section I of this bill. Any citizen of Thaecia may participate in the Assembly of Roleplay. The Assembly of Roleplay shall not be considered part of any branch of Government.

    • Section Ia - All business of the Assembly of Roleplay shall take part of the Assembly of Roleplay Regional Message Board.

  • Section II - Any citizen of Thaecia can author RP Legislation. In order for the legislation to be legitimate, it must contain a Bill Name and Author. No bill may be debated if it does not have fulfil the above criteria. Additionally, the bill may also include a section stating the "Sponsors" of the bill. If the bill contains profanity, inappropriate, or offensive language, it may not be debated.

  • Section III - The Assembly of Roleplay shall be led by one citizen of Thaecia, whom shall be called the Leader of the Assembly, which may also be referred to as the ASL (Assembly Leader), they shall be decided by a vote amongst citizens once every four months, this being the same time as the inauguration of the Prime Minister at the start of a new regularly scheduled term. There may also be a vote for this position if the position becomes vacant. These votes shall be overseen by the World Assembly Delegate.

    • Section IIIa - The ASL shall be responsible for running debates and votes within the Assembly of Roleplay. They must put legal bills on the floor in the priority order of the following: 1) the number of sponsors the bill has, 2) the date and time in which the legislation was last edited. The ASL does not have the permission to determine the agenda of the Assembly based on their own personal beliefs of the bills, and must follow the above criteria.

    • Section IIIb - The ASL may be removed from office with a special RP Legislation known as a "Removal of ASL", which requires 3 sponsors to be debated on. This legislation shall receive the highest priority, and will immediately go on the floor if it receives 5 sponsors if the author requests so, otherwise it shall go on the floor immediately after current business has concluded. Debate of the Removal of ASL shall last at least 24 hours, must end after 48 hours, the vote shall last at least 24 hours, and must end after 48 hours. The debate and vote of the removal shall be overseen by the Electoral Commissioner, whom will serve as Acting ASL for the time.

      • Section IIIba - This vote shall require a 3/5th majority of voting members to pass.

    • Section IIIc - The ASL may not serve as Electoral Commissioner.

  • Section IV - The position of Deputy ASL shall be held at all times. The Deputy ASL(s) will be appointed by the ASL and can be any citizen other than the ASL. Deputy Chairmen can temporarily take over the ASL's role if given direct permission from the ASL. In this situation, Deputy ASLs may exercise the rights set out for the ASL in Article II and Article III. These powers are retracted from the Deputy ASL upon the ASL's return.

  • Section V - All citizens must act professional and orderly in the Assembly of Roleplay. Disorderly behaviour is defined as using profanity or inappropriate language, personally attacking another citizen, unjustly accusing or lying about another citizen, treating others with a significant lack of dignity or respect, or any other manner of such actions.

    • Section Va - Punishment may result in suspension from the Assembly for the rest of the debate, and may also be taken to an established court of law.

  • Section I - The Assembly of Roleplay shall be open whenever RPL is available. When there is no RPL available, the Assembly shall be considered in temporary recess. As soon as a legal RPL is available, it must be put to the floor within 2 days.

  • Section II - The purpose of the debate stage is for citizens to share and discuss their opinions of the bill in question. Bills are entitled to a minimum of 12 hours debate. All bills are entitled to a debate, as long as it complies with Article II Section II.

  • Section III - Amendments may be put forward by any citizen at any time during the debate process. Amendments can change either part or all of the bill on the floor. Amendments shall be debated during the debate stage of the main bill. If the amendment contains profanity, inappropriate, or offensive language, removes the entire text of the bill, or would result in the bill violating Article II of this law, it shall not be debated or voted on.

  • Section IV - The voting stage shall occur after debate has been closed by the ASL. If any amendments have been submitted, the ASL shall put them to vote. Voting time on amendments must be between 6 hours and 48 hours. Citizens can cast either an “Aye”, “Nay”, or “Abstain” vote. "Aye" votes represent a vote in support on the bill or amendment, "Nay" votes represent a vote in opposition to the bill or amendment, "Abstain" votes represent an abstention from voting and are discounted from the overall total of votes cast.

  • Section V - A Citizen may be allowed to cast their vote for a bill in advance should they signal that they might not otherwise be available during the regular voting period, provided no amendments pass on the bill. If amendments on the bill pass, however they announced their intention to vote Aye, Nay or Abstain to the bill prior to the amendments being proposed, their vote shall be recorded as an Abstention, unless they return during the vote period.

  • Section VI - All bills and amendments require a simple majority of voting members to pass. A simple majority shall be defined as 50%+1 of all voting members. Once passed, the bill shall become an Act, enshrined in the RP Law Registry.

Amends Article II to read as follows

  • Section I - The Ministry of Domestic Affairs will be obligated to create, maintain, and publicly display, a separate factbook, dispatch, or a separate set of factbooks or dispatches, to the region that quickly and easily show the RP legislation that Congress or the Assembly of Roleplay has passed (separate from the IC Law Registry).

    • Section Ia- RP Legislation to be defined for the purposes of this bill as legislation that either does not directly affect the running of this region, legislation that exists for flavour, and legislation that exists for reasons solely related to IRL purposes. For example, bills that declare a climate emergency, bills that protect certain rights however do not make it an IC crime to violate these rights (such as a LGBTQ+ marriage protection bill), etc.

  • Section II - When a bill passes through Congress, fulfilling legal requirements to become law, it shall lose the suffix of 'bill', to be defined as legislation that has not yet been passed through Congress, and gains the suffix 'Act', to be defined as the opposite. This shall be reflected in the name of the law in the Registry.

    • Section IIa - Constitutional Amendments shall not be considered 'acts' for the purpose of this Act only, as so that they are not included in the Law Registry.

  • Section III - RP Bills that pass through Congress or the Assembly of Roleplay must be added to the RP Law Registry. These bills shall be written into the RP Law Registry with the following format:

      • The bill's number in law, followed by its title, for example if this bill were passed as the first piece of Thaecian RP legislation, it would be titled as ‘R.P. 001 Law Registry Act'. The next bill to pass would be R.P. 002 and so on increasing in increments of one each time.

      • The bill's authors, sponsors, and those who amended it, if applicable must be named.

      • The content of the bill, ranging from the preamble, to all of the articles and sections within it.

    • Section IIIa - If an act is repealed or amended it should not be removed/added again (with a new number) from the RP Law Registry. Should a bill be repealed or spent, the original bill should be clearly marked out with strike tags (for example), and moved to the Inactive RP Law Registry, or in the instance it has been amended, the amended text added/the original text removed without strike tags, as well as adding the amenders to the 'Amended by' section of the bill.

Amends Article III's changed sections to read as follows

  • Section III - RP bills that pass through Congress or the Assembly of Roleplay and fulfil the criteria in Section I will be placed in the Inactive RP Law Registry, which shall be separate from the Inactive IC Law Registry, which shall host IC bills that have passed through Congress and fulfil the criteria in Section I. All bills that fit the criteria defined in Section I will be moved out of their previous law registry into one of these. These bills shall be written into their Inactive Law Registry with the following format:

Read dispatch

I should be a Senator at this rate I write every bill on the floor

Brototh wrote:I should be a Senator at this rate I write every bill on the floor

Wanna switch jobs?
jkjkjkjkjk

... unless? 🤭😳

Pretty sure everyone already knows my stance on this. RP legislation is a great way to get people involved and keep people active. I will be voting Aye and suggest all Senators to do so as well.

While I don't believe this is necessarily a bad idea, the amount of work put into something purely done for roleplay purposes is a bit worrying considering I haven't been seeing much demand for this. I don't see a lot of citizens excited or wanting to participate on this project, so knowing it'll add new work for the Electoral Commission, which already has stuff to do pretty constantly, is a bit worrying.

«12. . .172173174175176177178. . .313314»

Advertisement